posted
Nov 21, 2008 by Lamar Thames
Like many of you, I have been trying to make sense of the mess in Clay County over the fate Diane Hutchings and Rob Bradley.
It appears the two won’t be taking their place on the Board of County Commissioners. On Nov. 4, voters overwhelmingly approved a charter amendment to rescind the decision made two years earlier to enlarge the commission by two members, including a permanent position of chairman.
I don’t particularly care whether we have five commissioners or seven (although five are certainly cheaper.) What I would like to see is the idea of a permanent commission chairman prevail from the quagmire we now face.
And I don’t care whether Bradley is that person, although I do admire him for his integrity, intelligence and dedication to improving Clay County. There are undoubtedly others of a similar caliber, including his write-in opponent Mike Heemer, but none of them have shown a willingness to become involved.
When I moved to Clay County in 1994, it didn’t take long to pick up on the notion the county had an inferiority complex. I got the idea a lot of people felt like the county and its residents didn’t get the respect and recognition all their good works deserved. I agree that we didn’t. In retrospect maybe we should have kept it to ourselves in light of the problems growth has caused us.
While examining all the great qualities the county had to offer, it became obvious to me that what it lacked was an effective spokesperson.
Jacksonville has its mayoral position, the state has its governor, and St. Johns County has its history and beaches. Clay County doesn’t have a figurehead to focus attention on the worthwhile aspects of life here. I think it needs one.
While an elected four-year county chairmanship could be a cheerleader for Clay County, it could also develop a consensus to focus on problems that need fixing and projects its citizens would like to see the county tackle.
Most of all, I would like to see this new leadership position bring about a sense of cooperation among all of its citizens. And I do mean all of them. I know it is a tall order but I think someone needs to step into the fray and promote harmony and good will.
I am not advocating that political adversaries cease working for what they believe in. I just want all of those who disagree with one another to have respect for the people with opposing opinions and realize that everyone is working for the common good.
Barack Obama and John McCain seem to be doing that on a national scale, even though they fought tooth and nail during the campaign. Let’s try some of that sense of cooperation on a local level.
You know, of course, that I am speaking of two particular groups here. On one side is the so-called “establishment government” of elected officials and those who some people perceive as being political “insiders.” On the other side is the highly effective citizens group known as the Citizens for Term Limits and Accountability in Government, also known as CTLAC.
The latter has been a powerful force in Clay County for nearly 10 years. Through citizen’s initiatives, they have changed our form of government dramatically, moving from at-large county commissioners to single-member districts and instituting term limits on commissioners.
Now, it looks like CTLAC has succeeded in reversing a Charter Review Committee amendment to enlarge the county commission by two members and install a permanent chairman.
Bravo to them!
Now it is time for statesmanship to take over. Whether it is Bradley, Hutchings or Roy Lyons (a Republican Party stalwart), one of the government “insiders” needs to say, “OK, we lost this fight, now let’s move on.” If offered, CTLAC leaders Jane Padgett and Durwood Smith need to accept a carrot stick graciously and agree to work WITH the government for the good of all.
I know both sides think they others are just out for their own gain, but that is just not true. I know people from all sides, and almost to a person, their interests are for the collective good and not personal greed.
Everyone needs to get together, shake hands and go forward from here in a sense of cooperation, good will and common respect for each other. Enough of this “he said, she said” bashing. Let’s agree to a common goal. We will all be the better for it.
Amen.
Marsha Willoughby
11/21/2008
7:50 pm
#28
I agree with some of your points Lamar and there are some that I don’t agree with. To be quite honest while you were in charge of MCS I felt there was favoritism shown to Roy Lyons/Rob Bradley/Jack Myers/ pro beltway pro development, pro political patronage. I never saw any objectivity at all in the coverage of this issues.
I am rather put off by your suggestion that Durwood/Jane/CTLAC take some sort of carrot if it’s offered. Funny that should come up when at this juncture they’re winning the battle.
To suggest that Clay County will somehow suffer without a figurehead/Mayor/Chairman to me is just political clap trap. In all the attacks by Karen Lake and other annonymous bloggers on the CTLAC you never once did anything about it.
You have either failed to truly look at both sides, or you merely have no interest in it……..in my opinion.
Judith
11/21/2008
9:52 pm
#29
Lamar – I have to agree with Marsha in that it doesn’t seem that any ‘carrot stick’ is offered to the CTLAC but only a hard fought (and expensive) decision by the courts is in their (our) favor.
I also wonder how well you know all of the parties as you feel no personal greed is involved here. There is always greed where there’s growth and it is usually the basis for the regular people, the taxpayers getting the shaft. It is here in Clay County as it is on Wall Street and in Detroit. I just watched an excellent expose on PBS’s NOW about greed being the whole basis of the S&P’s, Moody’s and other ratings companies on Wall Street. It’s not a good thing they did, is it?
Mike Heemer
11/22/2008
5:14 am
#30
Lamar – I’m glad that you mentioned my name but I’m not too happy that you write me off as someone that has not shown a willingness to become involved. What do you call taking on the task of running against rob Bradley as a write-in?
I have not stopped being involved. I am and will continue fighting against the boondoggle toll way, any moratorium on impact fees having 7 commissioners and wasteful spending of taxpayer money on things like ‘future transportation sites’.
I don’t understand where all the negativity about the CTLAC comes from. You say you want people to be involved yet you imply that you only want them involved if it suits the purposes of the few who want to run Clay County to their advantage.
Why in the world would you say that CTLAC should back off? The 1DCA sided with them. Why not tell Roy to back off? Oh right, the guy that is backing that law suit has plenty of money to drag it out and the guy is not Roy Lyons. I doubt if he has spent one penny of his own money. If his PAC the CPVR was really interested in what they state is their objective the suit would be coming through them. But then they would have to document where the money is coming from.
Lamar, if the BoCC really thought that having a chair for more than one year they would have taken care of that problem already. The charter does not say the chair has to be someone new every year, only that they have to elect a chair every year. All they have to do is put their ego away for a while and let one person do the job for 2 or 3 or 4 years. But no, they have to make sure they get their chance at being ‘in charge’.
Karen Lake
11/22/2008
9:58 am
#31
Lamar,
This is truly a special column. Thank you for writing it. What makes it special is that you have taken a moderate approach in resolving the circumstances we face. I applaud your effort, your honesty and your perspective. And I, in fact, agree with you.
I think our differences in opinion can be explained in that one little word: moderation. Reasonable people come back to point center after swinging all the way left or all the way right on an issue because the merit points have been explored and thoroughly fleshed out. Reasonable people then work to build consensus because it benefits the sum of all its parts (I experienced that on the CRC.) The key here is that we are making an assumption that everyone involved is a reasonable person. I hope that’s true.
When all of the mechanisms have been exhausted, one of us will have to be the “bigger” person and concede this round.
If it’s us, then so be it. We’ll do what’s right because, as you so eloquently pointed out, we have nothing to gain financially, we are committed to making Clay County a better place and we are doing this because we believe in a 4-year chair. Period.
Thanks for the post, Lamar. See you around the Internet dial.
Mike Heemer
11/22/2008
3:34 pm
#32
So Karen, I’m missing something here. CTLAC puts an amendment on the ballot. Roy Lyons files a law suit against it before it even gets voted on. The 1DCA says they stay on the ballot. 67K people vote for it. Roy then takes it to the 1DCA and they say the amendments are just fine and the voters have spoken.
Rob and Diane try to sneak one past them and take office anyway. The 1DCA says whoa up there cow pokes. Not so fast. Isn’t going to happen. Now the 1DCA has said no to a re-hearing and no I’m not going to send it to the FSC.
Am I doing OK here so far? The CTLAC has done nothing but defend themselves against a law suit filed by Roy yet you are accusing them of heinous acts of whatever it is you are trying to say they have done.
Now here is a little question for you. Since when does Roy make a we? I have yet to see your name attached to this law suit. He just got done saying that he was funding this whole thing himself and here you are talking about a we.
Would you mind explaining to us who we is? Or have you spoken out of class again? Wasn’t that why you were told to quit blogging on MCS because you were giving out too much information that people didn’t want out there for the public to see?
You may want to check with the rest of the we to make sure they want everyone to know that it is not just Roy that is driving this lawsuit. There really is a we and the we is hiding behind someone who is doing their bidding for them.
Perhaps ‘we have nothing to gain financially’ isn’t quite as true and the motives quite as altruistic as you would like everyone to think they are.
I love your comment: “When all of the mechanisms have been exhausted, one of us will have to be the “bigger” person and concede this round.” So when are you going to give it up? CTLAC is only defending themselves. One other thing you fail to mention is that the SOE and the BoCC are also defending themselves. Or isn’t that convenient to mention?
Karen, that chair may not make you one dime but it is going to make someone a lot of dimes. Nobody spends that kind of money for nothing.
Tell the other members of the we that it is time to give it up. The voters are not stupid. They will remember for a long time what the we has done. My opinion is that the arrow beside the name of these two candidates is looking awful small for any other office they might want to run for.
Roy Lyons
11/22/2008
3:54 pm
#33
Lamar, I am one of those that will miss your column on sat mornings. I wish you well in the future. The reasons you stated were all very good reasons for a 4 year chair. I believe the chair should be elected by all the people not just 20% of the people. It is possible we will have a chair, if things hold as they are, that received 1200 votes and will lead a county that has 115,000 voters, and is only accountable to one district.
Lamar those that are saying you are favoring me in some way are unaware of the several conversations we have had on just the opposite. I hold no bad will toward any, and I don’t attack , nor will I , those that oppose me because that is their right and I respect it, although I disagree.
I am really thankful that they are so concerned my ability to pay. I can assure them that my wife and I are enjoying our retirement and will contiue to do so. Thank you so much for caring.
It is good to see you back up Larmar. retirement is super and so is life.
Marsha Willoughby
11/22/2008
3:56 pm
#34
It’s my guess the olive branch that is sought is to make Travis Cummings a permanent chair, or Wendell Davis. I don’t think we need a permanent Chairman, and more to the point does the Charter as it stands allow for one. If 5 grown people cannot come to some sort of consensus about the agenda that is best for the benefit of the county then we need new ones.
I am against a permanent Chair regardless of who it is.
Roy Lyons
11/23/2008
10:18 am
#38
Marsha, I have stayed off these blogs but your ststement just shows how little research you have done on the subject. Let me just give one quote from T. Wayne Bailey, PHD Professor of Political Science, Stetson University.
“Clearly single-member districts are needed as a means of lowerings costs of campaigns and attracting more diverse representation.Including at large members also will encourage a more holistic view of the needs of the community and serve as a check and balance to local and parochial interests.
During the coming decade county governments will encounter increasing regional responiblities, and a representaion model(5-2) that includes such a balance will best serve the citizens of Clay County.”
Marsha I am sure there is something wrong with the above, how about some research that shows it to be wrong.
I am not planning on turning this into a blog thing I just counldn’t pass that up.
See you around town Lamar
smile life is good
Mike Heemer
11/23/2008
11:01 am
#39
Roy;
I hear what you are saying but that again is only one person’s opinion even if he does have a PHD.
67K (76.9%) voters in Clay County did not agree with him. That in my mind is a mandate from the people that pay the Board’s salary.
If we had say 9 SMDs and then went to a +2 I might be able to swallow that. The problem is that with only 5 districts and the dispersion of population within Clay County it is nearly impossible to not have the two A/L come from D1.
That cannot be good for Clay County regardless of how many PHDs say it is. I don’t want to see a mandated ‘permanent’ Chair. If the BoCC were to elect the same person two years in a row then there really isn’t much that could be done about that is there?
Except perhaps an amendment that says we have to have a ‘new’ chair each year.
What your PHD did not say in his quote was that one of those +2 should be a permanent elected Chair. That was added in to the mix by the CRC.
It could very well be that the CRC overstepped the bounds of what the citizens would accept once they had a chance to really think about what they had previously approved. If the CRC had just left it at +2 it might have had a chance of getting by.
I mentioned a thing called ‘buyer’s remorse’ a long time ago in a blog on another site. I believe we just saw that in action. It sounded good at first but after careful consideration they decided to send it back for a full refund.
Marsha Willoughby
11/23/2008
2:21 pm
#40
Roy,
The time for you to have any influence on me has long since past. You can quote all the verbage you want from every single place you can find some and it will not change my mind. You can use all you like to form your opinion, my own common sense is good enough for me. Five people debating and deciding on the future of this county is better then one bully who has a couple of buddies on the board.
I don’t really care who is doing what elsewhere, shall we talk about the number of public officials who are being caught doing things they shouldn’t?
That permanent chair is a tool of development as far as I am concerned and Clay County doesn’t need it, we don’t need a beltway in it’s current configuration, we don’t need to pay 77k for an acre of land that is worth at the most 25k and we don’t need to give tax exemptions to anyone that has got anything to do with building roads.
If you want to say I’m wrong that is your choice, but the crazy thing about this county, people are still entitled to make up their minds based upon their own personal criteria.
I believe you’d like to restrict that in this county, and I believe you will continue to meet growing opposition towards that end.
Roy Lyons
11/23/2008
4:41 pm
#41
Mike and Marsha , So what both of you say , you are correct no amount of reasearch on how county gov’t works, what positive approaches for our county could be taken by the 5-2 idea, your minds are completly closed to anything. There is an old saying people learn by listening and reading and reasearching, they never learn by talking. If you have noticed during this whole affair I have never done anything but speak of positions , you have made all sorts of accusations about people. You are so mad , you make up so many things that aren’t true I really feel sorry for you guys. You get nasty with who ever doesn’t agree with you , you can’t back up the wonderful things that come from a 5 single member board, even though many counties , St Johns were so unhappy with it ,it was only there 4 years.How about some reasearch that says it is the superior form of gov’t. 80% of the people in Fla. are gov. by a mixed board.
What this is really about is, the people can now only vote for 1 of the 5 which takes the power away from the people, it gives it a small special interest group which wants people divided so they are the power, that is where it lies.What is the next thing on your agenda to futher the power of this small but very effective group. Marsha I have never tried to influence you in any way , if you remember I tried to help you guys in what you were doing. So life goes on and don’t try to influence me unless you have facts to back them up, which you don’t have.
so smile life is good
Roy
Cindy Newman
11/23/2008
7:53 pm
#42
Roy:
You mentioned you’re retired. Go be retired, and let the taxpayer who works for a living decide how our tax dollars are spent. The voters have spoken- give it a rest. We don’t need a chair, we don’t need 2 more employees on the county’s pay roll, we don’t need a beltway. I hope you are exposed as to who’s funding your legal fight, and I hope you’re exposed soon. Then we as citizens in Clay County can know who to boycott in the future.
Lamar: since you’re not censored by the TU anymore, I was hoping your professional opinions may come out to really give this county what it needs- a fresh voice.
Roy Lyons
11/23/2008
9:42 pm
#43
Cindy, You have made my point, you can be nothing but nasty when you are confronted by someone who wants facts. I am aware you don’t want two comm. elected by the people of the whole county that would get in the way of your plan. Why would you want more imput from the people , what you are after is control.
As far as the beltway goes I was not envolved in any of those meeting, my knowledge is I believe they picked the pink route and it is being delayed 20 years or something.
My retirement is super but I don’t believe because I am retired my taxes or involvement stops. This is all fun and games but I am done my point has been made. You guys make up more stuff.
have a great turkey day and smile life is good.
Marsha Willoughby
11/23/2008
10:15 pm
#44
Roy, the first thing you need to understand is that I am not trying to control what you or anyone else thinks, I don’t think that highly of myself that I would have anymore effect then the next person. I speak for myself, no one else. If I am supporting the CTLAC I point that out. If I am supporting my own personal beliefs that is clearly stated as well. It is up to the reader what credibility I have and it differs from each and every person each and every time I say something.
I also don’t think so highly of myself that I would “feel sorry” for people as often as you do. Between the blogs on MCS and what I have personally witnessed from your own mouth (your own form of nasty) you really aren’t superior to anyone, however based upon what you say it sure seems you think you are.
St Johns county is in a mess, and they just had one of their Commissioners indicted for bribery. Do you really want to use St Johns County as an example for your side.
As for mad, or cranky as has been used recently. Lets be politically correct and just use the term “concerned”.
I am concerned that the political patronage has gotten out of hand in this county. I am concerned that there is a percentage of those involved in county politics that are serving special interests to build a beltway that is a financial disaster for this county. I am concerned that this same percentage of people believe in “victory at any cost” and “the end justifies the means”. If you wish to use mad go right ahead, that is your choice. I am mad, cranky and worst of all determined. I seriously doubt you’re done Roy, but then again, neither am I.
Carry on please, I am all for you pushing this on in the court system, I would even applaud it because that way there will be a definitive end, either way. CTLAC has stood strong defending the peoples right to participate in their goverment and that is awesome whether they win or lose in court. You’re the reason they’re defending it, and partly responsible for the growing numbers who support them. I don’t like what you’ve done but so far it’s working out for us on the other side.
I actually owe alot to both you and Karen, you’re both the reasons I even gave the entire situation a second glance.
If Clay County wants to be something special then it needs to stop looking around at what everyone else is doing and consider just Clay County. Unless you want to look for what not to do. We’ve got 5 reasonably intelligent people on the BCC, for now I say let is stay as it stands, they all get to take turns.
Before I will EVER agree to a permanent Chair there would have to be safeguards in place to limit the power of that chair and the control over it in the hands of the voters of Clay County.
Mike Heemer
11/24/2008
5:34 am
#45
Roy, I find it interesting that you presume that I have not studied any of the information you and the CRC have presented. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I have not read. Roy, it is not about control. Who could we possibly be controlling?
As for more input from the voters, how much more input do you want? 76.9% of the people that voted said they didn’t want two more Commissioners with 1 being an elected chair. It would seem to me that any ‘controlling’ going on is coming from the side of the aisle that is trying to set aside that mandate.
Having said that, I have yet to see anywhere that says that having an elected Chair is a good idea. Well other than from the CRC that wanted it that way. I’m not saying it wasn’t there, just that I missed it if it was. Could you enlighten me on that? How many other counties have an elected chair? Not just a +2 but an actual elected chair.
I’ve asked that before but I have yet to see an answer. What I get is answers like 80% of Florida is governed by mixed boards. Do any of them have a permanently elected Chair? Yes or No?
There is one other question I have to ask here and I’d like a brutally honest answer from you. It’s OK, you won’t hurt my feelings by being honest.
If I had won the election for the Chair would you be spending your money to fight to keep that position active so that I could take office?
Keep in mind, that I don’t like the toll way, I wouldn’t even consider a moratorium on impact fees, I would vote against any new DRIs that are in any way reliant upon the pink route toll way such as Governors Park and I would do my best to implement a program that makes lobbyists register and document every meeting with a Commissioner even if it is only one Commissioner.
And if possible I would make any candidate that met with a lobbyist prior to taking office attend an ethics class so that they would understand where they made their mistake in doing so.
As I said, be honest Roy. Is that Chair position so important to the good government of this county that you would continue to fund this fight if it were me taking the seat? Again, a simple Yes or No.
Roy your point cannot be made until you answer both of these questions.
Rich Klinzman
11/24/2008
5:38 pm
#47
Thank the powers who be that the extra commissioners were defeated. That was a bad idea from the outset. Now we have a gadfly trying to muck up the works with a mislabelled group claiming to be watching out for our rights but they will not tell where their money is coming from.
Speaking of PHDs and what they think. I worked with many PHDs in my life and I gotta tell ya, they may be good at thinking things up but they are not usually practical. Most PHDs I knew wore loafers because they were incapable of tying their shoes.
I am looking forward to someone exposing what is behind this toll road too. There is another classic bad idea. Who and what is really behind that? I read Karen Lake seemd to be pushing it but I’m not sure why. Usually one just follows the money. Anybody know for sure/